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23 July 2012 @ 11:37 am
NT Live Cracks Down On Copyright  
So recently, the NT tumblr blog posted this. They're cracking down on recordings in the fandom for copyright infringement. I'm so disappointed in them.

OFFICIAL Statement re: Frankenstein DVD/Bootleg Recordings


"We appreciate the huge amount of interest in Frankenstein, which has continued since the original broadcasts. In response to popular demand, we sought the necessary rights to be able to show the broadcasts again and are delighted we have been able to offer audiences further opportunities to see it at encore screenings.
 
National Theatre Live is made possible by the support of the artists involved and we are keen to be able to preserve this goodwill so we can continue to make future productions available. We appreciate there is a huge amount of interest in making the broadcast available on DVD but currently this is not the wish of the artists involved.
 
We do not in any way condone the piracy of recording, both because it is an illegal activity and because it is against the wishes of the artists whose work we represent.  I would let you know that if you choose to record, distribute or download the screening of Frankenstein, you are breaking the law and risk legal action.
 
National Theatre Live is all about creating greater access to the productions on our stage. We try to emulate the theatrical experience as much as possible and believe the big screen, collective cinema experience comes as close as we can get to the original theatrical event."
 
If you are a fan of anyone involved in the creation of Frankenstein or the National Theatre, we would ask that you respect their wishes and decision, and hope that you will continue to support National Theatre Live in your local cinema.

David Sabel
Head of Digital Media
Producer, NT Live
National Theatre




It’s like they never read my letter. 

Please do not be callous with your demands of us, to ask us to not do all that we can to fulfill this now desperate desire. Do not ask us to give up our lives. Do not ask us to give up a chance for exploration and expression.

Do not punish those who love you, and reward those who hate you with inaction.

I don’t get it. I just don’t. I don’t even…I don’t know anymore. I’m just so frustrated now.

The problem is that it’s unnecessary, and we don’t deserve this. We don’t. We give them love and respect, and they give us this shallow treatment back. We were going to thank them for their encore performances, because we though that they did that for us. Apparently they had this up their sleeves. Do we take away their profits, their hype, their anything? No. They’re punishing us for no good. They gain nothing from hurting us, but they do it anyway, out of some silly principle that hinders technology. They’re just like the writers who won’t allow fanfiction to be written for their books.

I go and beg them, beg them, to not do this and they go and do exactly that.

Theater, like all other entertainment media forms, are all for the purpose of storytelling, and its most intrinsic purpose is to share the story with everyone. Fandom does that, and apparently NT does not. Instead, it clings to its plays like a bratty five-year old with its toys.

No one gets it, no one. You may be able to make back all the money you put into a movie or play or TV show with hype, but it is fandom that writes it into the history books and immortalizes it, or writes it off. If you haven’t moved your audience, you’ve failed, and fandom is the test for that.

NT is not the creator, by the way. It is simply the middleman, the merchant, to which artists may bring their craft to us. Like the Great Wall and the Mongols, we should just go AROUND them.

So go ahead, NT, enjoy your mediocrity. Your shows will happen, collect their obligatory trophies, and no one will remember them after a year. You may not know what you never had, but go ahead and look at the other fandoms - Sherlock, Doctor Who, Supernatural. Frankenstein, and NT, had a chance, a little play, had a chance at all that, and you gave it up. Shot off your own foot.

Because here’s the icing on the cake: fandom doesn’t need you. Watching the play without being able to make it fandom is more or less just like reading Mary Shelley’s book. We’ll write our own plays, make musicals, perform and tell stories ourselves. And better yet, we’ll share it, with everyone, not just the elite upper-class that can afford it.

And once the world realizes that they can get everything from us, for free, because storytelling and humanity should not have a price, ever, no one will ever need you anymore. There are a million different theaters out there who do the same as you, and aren’t petty about it.

So no, NT, you don’t get it. And you certainly don’t appreciate it. And we, the fandom, are the sorriest for it now, but you will be the sorriest in the end.

July 25, 2012 Edit: Thanks for all the comments, everyone. I love that we're talking about this.

Firstly, let me apologize to those who I have unfairly included in the "we." As I don't know who is we but I know that there is a we, feel free to make it clear you're not part of the we, obviously.

Secondly, It's not that I'm not happy about the DVD, that's fine. It's that they're going through tumblr, finding the fangirls that do have bootlegs, and so on and so forth.

It's actually not Frankenstein, it's just copright issues overall. There are rumors that here in America, the companies are going to start using ISP addresses to monitor our computers, which isn't fair.

The basic idea is that technology's main purpose is making things more accessible. The printing press did it with books, the cassette tapes did it with music, the VCRs did it with TV, and now, Internet could do the same for all mediums of art, including theater. I love theater and I'm a part of theater, but I'm also a pragmatist: I can't go all the time. And yes, I don't die from that, but it would be nice to get a second chance. And everyone knows that no recording can EVER be the same as theater, but anything is better than absolutely nothing. And I get that artists and theaters and companies need money, but people will pay for quality. Patronage, not forcing. It may be naive of me to believe this, but I believe that art shouldn't be about money. Money is a part of life, but it shouldn't hinder storytelling. If Josh Whedon can make a wonderful movie like Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along blog without making people pay and STILL get money from people who loved it enough to buy the DVD, I think that it is quite possible.

Stephen Fry talked about copyright at the iTunes Festival. The unique ability of technology to reach all types of people, all around the world, better than any form of communication we have yet, is incredible, and for me, matches the main purpose of storytelling, which is to reach, unite, touch and inspire, people from all around the world and all walks of life.

I love that technology can do that. I wish people let technology do that more, that's all.

Listen to Stephen Fry here: http://www.stephenfry.com/2009/07/27/series-2-episode-4-itunes-live-festival/

July 26 Edit: Hey everyone, I've loved reading everyone's opinions about this, but interestingly, my other post on this matter as garnered a different stance on NT's decisions regarding Frankenstein. Please go check it out!

http://cumberbatchfans.livejournal.com/343154.html



Here is the original blog post: http://gleelockandrock.tumblr.com/post/27841381155/national-theatre-live-official-statement-re

 
 
( 36 comments — Leave a comment )
Carolinatokyo_pt on July 23rd, 2012 07:23 pm (UTC)
Well I'm not disappointed (or surprised really) and neither should anybody. They have artistic and legal rights to defend. It's not all about the money or they would be releasing the DVD. I think as fans of the production and its artists we should be respectful of that.

I think you are overreacting. Not condoning is not the same as actively tracking and cracking down on bootlegs and their makers. Were you expecting the National Theatre to "bless" bootlegs? If you want to make or possess a bootleg, that is your own personal decision (with its own personal consequences), but you cannot expect the National Theatre to pat you on the back and say "well done, you!".

Bootlegs will still be around, the National have made clear their position on them, now it's up to you to decide.
BrightEyes: Frankenstein: scientist and creationbrighteyed_jill on July 23rd, 2012 08:15 pm (UTC)
As a professional theatre artist, I understand the wishes of NT and the creators to allow their work to remain ephemeral. That's what theater does best. It wasn't developed or created with the plan for it to be preserved indefinitely. Part of the beauty of theatre, in my mind, is that it's a live experience that is unable to be recreated outside of a certain point of time: a coming together of the theatre artists and the audience. NT Live allows a larger audience to share in that experience, sure, but a home viewing experience stretches that definition to a point far outside what the art was intended to do.

Would I love to have a DVD of Frankenstein? Sure! However, I believe NT when they explain that the artists involved wish to let Frankenstein remain as a once-in-a-lifetime experience, and that NT hopes to keep its artists happy by helping facilitate that. I'd be pissed if someone made a camera-phone recording of one of my plays and shared it around: not because it would be depriving me of profits (profits, in theatre? ha.), but because it would be a violation of the way the art was meant to be presented. Like if someone ripped off a part of a statue and showed it to some other people claiming it was the statue.

tl;dr - Theatre is ephemeral; that's part of its beauty and its strength.

Edited at 2012-07-23 09:08 pm (UTC)
[bang]__girlonthemoon on July 23rd, 2012 11:13 pm (UTC)
Yep definitely, theatre is transient & the National is doing a great thing by trying to open it up to a global audience through NT Live.. A DVD would have been a nice perk, but the play itself is still a palpable thing.. The script is available, & I think the soundtrack is too? It's definitely not completely gone.

Plus there's the logistics of it.. If they make an NT Live DVD of Frankenstein then surely they should be making DVD's of all the other NT Live productions they show.. It sounds like a nightmare & I'm not surprised that they have said no.

&& bootlegs, I have to hold my hand up to having seen/owned a few from various things & they are almost an inevitable, especially in things like musical theatre, & whilst they do give 'free publicity' for a show when put on youtube it is also massively unfair for the actors being filmed/audioed. I'm an actor & getting out on stage is nerve wracking enough without the worry that it could end up on youtube somewhere.
a_blackpanthera_blackpanther on July 23rd, 2012 08:30 pm (UTC)
I'm okay with their statement. I get it. But as long as there are places that still don't show it and we have little hope of making it to London any time soon, we'll just have to make do with what we have.

I'd much rather pay for a ticket and see this at the cinema but the local NT Live location isn't doing the Frankenstein screenings.

Basically, whatever.

Edited at 2012-07-23 08:30 pm (UTC)
allofthefandomsallofthefandoms on July 23rd, 2012 08:59 pm (UTC)
First of all, super over reaction. Yes, many of us are sad that they are not going to make the DVD and that there will be a limited number of encore performances before it's over. But is that really any different than a show? I mean, if any of us had gone to see them live, we wouldn't be able to ask then to continue performing for ever. It's the same sort of deal.

Also, has there been anyone ever who has said bootlegs are ok? Just becaust NT has said they don't want/endorse bootlegs doesn't mean they will cease to exsist. Also, it is incredibly foolish and insulting to say that this will mean they will have no fanbase long term. It has been months since I saw it at my local theater and me and my friends still talk about it, reblog things about it on tumblr and are still very excited.

Tl;Dr: NT is a THEATER company, trying to bring a THEATER experience to a larger audience. It is meant to be a contained one time experience.
liederlady221b: BC_Creatureliederlady221b on July 23rd, 2012 10:35 pm (UTC)
Well said. I agree that the NT has a right to protect their own (and the artists') property rights. I'm still VERY disappointed that a DVD won't be forthcoming as I'd much prefer to buy a legal DVD (and enjoy the quality of same).

This doesn't change either my love of the work or my appreciation that the NT made the effort to arrange for encore performances. I hope they continue to screen repeat performances. Even having seen both shows, twice, I'd see them again in half a heartbeat!
allofthefandomsallofthefandoms on July 23rd, 2012 11:25 pm (UTC)
I was super disaapointed too, but my local cinema has shown 4 encore performances, and I've been to every one. (all sold out might I add.)

Though, in all honesty, I may look for a decent bootleg now that there is not going to be a DVD, but I still think that NT has every right to discourage it.
Ascendant Angelascendant_angel on July 23rd, 2012 09:43 pm (UTC)
Of course I'm disappointed that there will be no DVD but I completely understand the NT protecting their rights and those of the artists involved with regards to bootlegs.
black_queen: herrgrafsarichblack_queen on July 23rd, 2012 10:53 pm (UTC)
I am with the previous speakers. I am disappointed because I have not had a chance to see "Frankenstein" and am unlikely to get it. But I also understand the position of the NT.

I am a big musical theater fan and the truth is, that any bootleg recording gives a chance to relive what I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears and does not come even close to what it was like live. So if I were to see/hear a recording only, I might think it rather weak and wonder what all the hype is about. Therefore I understand the authors wish not to promote media which in their opinion does not do full justice to their performance.

I am weasel: moriarty by twistedboneskillerweasel on July 23rd, 2012 11:09 pm (UTC)
Out of curiosity, why would you think that the people who own the rights to something would be thrilled about people bootlegging their property?

Cindy: John and Irenecorpsebride05 on July 24th, 2012 12:24 am (UTC)

If I owned the rights to Frankenstein or any other production I wouldn't be happy either about people pirating it. I would obviously feel ripped off.

Fans are not entitled to have a dvd.

The National Theatre announced a long time ago that Frankenstein would never be released on dvd for various different reasons. I don't understand why this no dvd drama is coming up again.

It would be nice if people respected Benedict and companies wishes.

Our Drama Queen: benedict cumberbatch crime thriller awarourdramaqueen on July 24th, 2012 12:47 am (UTC)
"We appreciate there is a huge amount of interest in making the broadcast available on DVD but currently this is not the wish of the artists involved."

1) Yes it's very disappointing that there won't be a DVD, but for all we know, Benedict was among those who voted against it! Would you want the NT to overrule his wishes, if this was the case?

2) Honestly, you can't blame the National Theatre to ask fans not to share bootleg recordings. They're just making their position known and point out the legal consequences for doing it, which have always been there and would still be there even if a DVD was released. It's not like they're starting a witch hunt for those who do share/download bootlegs. It's still up to every individual fan whether they want to ignore them and seek out a bootleg copy - or not.

3) The comparison to fan fic does not quite hold - fan fics are derivative works, not 1:1 copies of an original work.

4) You also can hardly compare TV shows and plays. Theatre has always been different in that it is ephemeral - there is no ultimate performance cast in stone (or on film), each performance is different. Every now and then a theatre company may make a decision to record a specific performance for TV, but that is a rarity, and has always been.

The National Theatre never promised us anything - they said they would look into it, and apparently the artists involved in the play have said no to a DVD release. The NT has to respect their wishes (and don't you think they'd have loved the additional income from the DVD sales?), and so do we.
Amyevila_elf on July 24th, 2012 02:51 am (UTC)
I'm mainly disappointed because there were tons of rumours around that there was a good possibility of a DVD (though those rumours were probably not even started by NTL people).

It makes me sad that these people don't want a DVD because Frankenstein should be shown on the big screen, when in reality there are now just going to be a bunch of crappy bootlegs watched on a computer screen.

I wonder if next year there will be more showings? It hurts thinking of never being able to see it again.
Ruric: Ruric - moonwolfruric on July 24th, 2012 06:18 am (UTC)
Wow, dude, epic sense of entitlement you have there!

I understand the disappointment that people feel in not having a DVD but the National Theatre isn't the bad guy here. The artists and creators involved are the people who don't want it out on DVD and I can totally understand that from their point of view of creators of the piece.

Great theatre is great theatre because it's a shared experience between the audience who is present on any given night and the actors. Any theatre actor will tell you that performances change radically from night to night depending on the energy inthe crowd. It's meant to be ephemeral and transient - it's a totally different form of art to movies or TV - both for the actors and for the audience.

So no, NT, you don’t get it. And you certainly don’t appreciate it. And we, the fandom, are the sorriest for it now, but you will be the sorriest in the end.

Seriously? The NT has been around for decades, it's probably the most well respected theatre in the UK, and judging by the performances I've been to over the last year or so there are more than enough pure theatre buffs, keen theatre students, tourists and other folk to keep putting bums on seats for every performance of ANY play it stages. It really doesn't need a few hundred or even a few thousand Sherlock fans to keep the place running. *G*

Edited at 2012-07-24 06:19 am (UTC)
Christina: SPN: Salvationdunkle_feuer on July 24th, 2012 07:39 am (UTC)
Wow... overreacting much? How can anyone be really surprised by that statement? The NT has said for the past year already that there won't be a DVD, but then, to make the fans happy, gave us the Frankenstein encore screenings, which is quite brilliant, IMO. They had no reason at all to do that, but they did it for us, the fans. So way to go to jump at them and complain now!

And for all you know, Benedict could be one of those who don't want a DVD. Shouldn't you respect that?

And can anyone be really surprised that the NT doesn't condone bootlegs?

I would love to have a DVD as well, of course, it is a brilliant play with a brilliant cast, but I can understand their reasoning. In the end I'm just very happy that they gave us the encore screenings, so that we could see it once more. Or watch it at all, like in my case, because I first discovered Benedict - and so Frankenstein - shortly after its run was over.

So, instead of being angry, maybe thank them that they went out of their way to make us happy?

As for losing fans - I highly doubt it. Most people don't feel that entitled and will happily continue to support them. I for one very much look forward to the end of the year when I will finally be in London again and can visit them/view one of their plays live.
rhade_radrhade_rad on July 24th, 2012 10:53 am (UTC)
Backing up what ruric and others here have said. Theatre is a very different experience from TV or movies as it strives for direct emotional engagement between actors and audience so you follow the story together moment by moment and even if you have seen Hamlet in 50 different productions you can still find yourself crying at the end, even though you know what happens. NTLive, and similar initiatives from opera and other theatre companies, exists as they recognise that there are theatre fans who can't get tickets, or get to the theatre itself. It is done by pointing cameras at one (in this case two) performances, so the cast are concentrating on delivering something which can be appreciated at the back of a theatre not to a camera. Which is probably the major factor in their reluctance to agree to a DVD. The RSC have produced DVDs of some of their productions but, after one or two early experiments, they now do this as a separate film. As Danny Boyle has a good reputation as a film maker as well as a theatre director he would want control of cameras and the cutting of any DVD of this production: apparently he has having some interesting discussions with the company responsible for broadcasting the Olympics about camera placements for the opening and closing ceremonies as his requirements are different from those needed for athletics.

I think you should also be aware that Frankenstein is a National Theatre creation, so they are entitled to protect its use and their reputation. It is something Nick Dear and Danny Boyle started working on when they were at the RSC in the early 90s and kept picking up from time to time. They presented the idea to Nick Hytner, Artistic Director of the NT, who agreed to include it in a season and put it on in their biggest theatre - the Olivier has 1200 seats. Without that collaboration and the NT funding it wouldn't exist at all. The NT has a good reputation but a production of a new play is always a risk.
Christy: The Fallalmaviva90 on July 24th, 2012 07:16 pm (UTC)
Of course it's sad to see that there won't be a DVD out but that probably goes for everything that's performed onstage, whether it be a play, musical or an opera.

Not everything gets to be on DVD, video, etc and although we might grumble at times, we should appreciate what does get released in the end. Bootlegs have been around for ages; they're great if you're a big fan of so-and-so actor/singer, especially those who rarely or don't perform anymore or, and this must be stressed, for your private viewing/collection but any theatre or opera company would be mad to promote them. They might as well invite people to bring in their video cameras and film as much as they like; it's unthinkable, not to mention disrespectful to the people involved.
::KIVIRAAT::: Graphics: Frankenstein Adamkiviraat on July 24th, 2012 07:48 pm (UTC)
I don't even know what I am able to add to this thread as everyone else seems to have summed things up perfectly and I completely agree with them. I think it's the collective "we" that you are talking about that is irking me the most, as I can say I certainly do not need nor wish for you to be angry and demanding on people like myself's behalf. Nor do I need to be part of a 'fandom' to be able to enjoy a production or for you to use as a reason to goad the NT or insult them.

"And better yet, we’ll share it, with everyone, not just the elite upper-class that can afford it. - I don't even know what you're on about with this one. Sorry I know I'm being an arsehole with my comment, but tbh, your post is pretty insulting to fandom, to those that just enjoy the theatre (such as myself), and to the NT and everyone who managed to make it such a success during it's run. There are plenty of things out there that I never got - nor will ever get - the chance to experience. As much as it is upsetting, you just get on with it. It's not unique to this situation and you need to just let it go.
hikarikame on July 26th, 2012 12:25 am (UTC)
July 25 Update
Thanks for all the comments, everyone. I love that we're talking about this.

Firstly, let me apologize to those who I have unfairly included in the "we." As I don't know who is we but I know that there is a we, feel free to make it clear you're not part of the we, obviously.

Secondly, It's not that I'm not happy about the DVD, that's fine. It's that they're going through tumblr, finding the fangirls that do have bootlegs, and so on and so forth.

It's actually not Frankenstein, it's just copright issues overall. There are rumors that here in America, the companies are going to start using ISP addresses to monitor our computers, which isn't fair.

The basic idea is that technology's main purpose is making things more accessible. The printing press did it with books, the cassette tapes did it with music, the VCRs did it with TV, and now, Internet could do the same for all mediums of art, including theater. I love theater and I'm a part of theater, but I'm also a pragmatist: I can't go all the time. And yes, I don't die from that, but it would be nice to get a second chance. And everyone knows that no recording can EVER be the same as theater, but anything is better than absolutely nothing. And I get that artists and theaters and companies need money, but people will pay for quality. Patronage, not forcing. It may be naive of me to believe this, but I believe that art shouldn't be about money. Money is a part of life, but it shouldn't hinder storytelling. If Josh Whedon can make a wonderful movie like Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along blog without making people pay and STILL get money from people who loved it enough to buy the DVD, I think that it is quite possible.

Stephen Fry talked about copyright at the iTunes Festival. The unique ability of technology to reach all types of people, all around the world, better than any form of communication we have yet, is incredible, and for me, matches the main purpose of storytelling, which is to reach, unite, touch and inspire, people from all around the world and all walks of life.

I love that technology can do that. I wish people let technology do that more, that's all.

Listen to Stephen Fry here: http://www.stephenfry.com/2009/07/27/series-2-episode-4-itunes-live-festival/
(Screened comment)
hikarikame on July 26th, 2012 06:10 pm (UTC)
Re: July 25 Update
Really? You really don't mind if companies use ISP to spy on your computers? Well, kudos to you then. I'd rather not.

I've never looked at the situation that way, thanks for bringing this up. They're not exactly helpless, and we're really not hurting them to the extent of rape...rape is a complete violation of all the rights and a forceful taking away of their own will. This situation, there's only illegal downloads, same as for most TV shows, movies, music...and usually it really doesn't hurt them. It's been proven that musicians still make plenty of money even with illegal downloads around, and that writers and directors are still well-off even if people share their digital content. Internet just makes the sharing of digital content easier.

But I get what you mean about everything else and the impermanence of it, if that's what they want. That would be my personal opinion then.

To me, it is still about copyright; Frankenstein is just another thing that sparks it. I really mean no disrespect, and they can do as they wish, but I've always asked questions until I got an answer that convinced me. Infuriated my mother. Obviously nothing is really happening here besides talking about it, which is great, of course. NT, like all other entertainment companies, have every right to do what they wish. I may not agree with it, but that doesn't really change anything.

It is very important to talk about it though. I'm going to see if I can get some more people from Tumblr talking about this. It's at least a bit more productive than mindless reblogging of Cumberpictures anyway. xD
hikarikame on July 26th, 2012 06:43 pm (UTC)
Re: July 25 Update
What I'm really trying to say is that I respect their rights, and I understand the reasoning behind the perceived slights and "raping," as you put it, of their rights, but that's what I'm arguing - is that it shouldn't be that way, and that it isn't such an invasive action. Obviously it's how you perceive it, or as someone said in my other thread, Your Mileage May Vary.

And I'm ultimately arguing that, as shown in histoy, telling people not to do something never really works, minus things like murder and such. It's why tyrants never last long, and why China is having so much trouble censoring the internet. Holding back technology is always a losing battle, and it really isn't some personal attack against the artists, its just something that might be a bit outdated now.

PS: Your raping statement reminded me of Britain's "You wouldn't steal a handbag" advert. It's on youtube if you haven't seen it yet. Dara O Briain has a great piece on it too.
Faith: The Birdsstarry_ice on July 27th, 2012 05:32 am (UTC)
Re: July 25 Update
I think as well-intentioned as your ideal of bootlegging having a role in promoting access, aiding the storytelling process, inspiring others, etc., unfortunately in the end you are still taking the distribution control out of the hands of the creators. And to me, that's where the argument fails.

Take an example that removes copyright law and finances from the picture. You write a fanfic, and post it to your fansite of choice. Someone else reads your fanfic, loves it, and decide to do the copy+paste thing and post it to a bunch of different sites in response. I mean, you may react differently, but most fanfic authors in this scenario would cry foul that their work has been stolen. And in past experience, most of fandom would agree and shun the evildoer who dared to copy. Because, regardless of intention, the issue is it was done without permission.

I would argue bootlegging is comparable to this, and NT Live states this very politely and clearly in their official statement. The artists - the director, writers, performers, etc - do not want their work on DVD, official or otherwise. We can argue for all eternity what the reasons may be. Bottom line is, it doesn't matter. It's in their right to say no. We have learned to extend this respect to each other in fandom, most of the time. Why should the source material be treated differently, in the name of access?
hikarikame on July 27th, 2012 04:21 pm (UTC)
Re: July 25 Update
Okay, you guys have convinced me. Thanks everyone, for taking the time to hash this all out. Special personal thanks to starry ice and ruric for knocking it out of the ballpark - you two really convinced me.

So now I can be put to rest; hopefully this thread can help everyone else too. I did tell people on Tumblr to come check it out, I hope they actually did. It's quite enlightening.
Amyevila_elf on July 27th, 2012 07:41 pm (UTC)
Re: July 25 Update
I just want to tack on a little something here:

Illegal downloads are just like the Fight Club. We may do it, but don't talk about it outside of locked doors (flocked posts).

Case in point...someone on Tumblr was going to record Creaturebatch. She gave way too much information, so she was caught, camera confiscated, and may face charges.
Zarina: Sherlock || Moriarty omgwtfrly?canadian_turtle on July 26th, 2012 03:13 pm (UTC)
Okay honestly, they don't condone bootlegs (which ARE illegal), which is only logical and nothing to get so worked up about. It certainly doesn't mean they're "cracking down on copyright", that's a misinterpretation of their statement.

I certainly hope they haven't read your letter, as you state, because if it's anything like the message your wrote above all they'll see is that you're throwing a childish tantrum that sounds an awful lot like you're threatening them. If they take your use of "we" to mean that all of fandom thinks like you do they certainly never will reply in kind like they have before or even consider making a DVD even if the wishes of the artists involved changes.
hikarikame on July 26th, 2012 06:17 pm (UTC)
I'll admit, for better or worse, that I sent the "Email to NT" letter, but of course I didn't send the reply to their post on tumblr about copyright infringement. That was just me talking about my feelings and seeing what people have to say. I am definitely NOT sending my reply to their post.

In any case, I hope people realize that, silly feelings aside, this is just a debate, so although I cannot help offending people [but I'll try not to], I hope I haven't made anyone truly upset. I am genuinely glad I get to debate this with people who know the situation enough to make a good argument about it. I was upset about NT, but obviously my feelings about it aren't important. This discussion, however, is. It really brightens my day every time I see someone put up a new post and shared their opinions.

I don't need them to change their mind about the DVD, or about anything they don't want to do or are reluctant to do. That doesn't mean I won't ask and debate and argue about their decisions.
hikarikame on July 26th, 2012 06:23 pm (UTC)
July 26 Edit
Hey everyone, I've loved reading everyone's opinions about this, but interestingly, my other post on this matter as garnered a different stance on NT's decisions regarding Frankenstein. Please go check it out!

http://cumberbatchfans.livejournal.com/343154.html
hikarikame on July 26th, 2012 07:49 pm (UTC)
I noticed that a lot more counterarguments focused on more ad hominem points, so I have question for everyone.

Why is the ephemeral nature of theater so important? All other mediums tell stories just as well, and stories that allow the audience to see over and over again have a bigger impact and are more accessible to the audience. Theater often risks these things just for its ephemeral nature. Yet it doesn't have to; TV often show theater here in America, on PBS, but obviously not every theater production does this.

I suppose I just don't get it; why is the fleeting nature of theater so valuable?
Ruric: Ruric - moonwolfruric on July 27th, 2012 04:44 am (UTC)
My own take? and again YMMV

Theatre is ephemeral because something special happens bewteen an audience physically present in the theatre and the energy they bring and how that interacts or inspires the actors during their performance that evening. If you've ever see the same play at different stages in it's run you can feel the difference. Things change night to night or hour to hour, it's a living breathing thing in the way that something on film isn't. It can't be captured on film not matter how hard you try.

Theatre is, I guess, more participatory than film or TV viewing and that by it's very nature is transient. It's not just about story telling it's about interacting with the medium.

Also any (articulate) actor who performs theatre, and in film and TV will be able to hold forth at length what the differences are, why the mediums are so different and what they get out of it. It's a fave question of mine at cons and when I'm lucky eough to meet them - because hearing the variety of their answers helps me wrap my head around my own response. A actor perfoming theatre pitches their performance differently, from body language to movement to facial reactions to how they project so from that POV I can understand them not wanting it filmed - what they're putting out there is not designed for filming and it's an appropriate performance for the medium. Also having cameras mucking about would break the moof of fantasy that a good theatre performance creates and that the audience are complict in maintaining.

For example I would LOVE to have seen Tom Hardy in Man of Mode at the National back in 2008 but I missed it. But I don't think I'd want to see if it was available as a bootleg because it would be such a desperately poor shadow of what a live performance should be.

I suspect it's one of those tihng where you either get it and abide by the wishes of the creators or you don't get it and don't. *G*

It's definitely not a money thing though. The NT are aware they could make a bundle on releasing DVDs of shows - but they respect the creator's wishes. Also the NT is one of the least eliteist theatres around (one of the reasons they're doing NT live) and witness the fact that it sells a signiicantly large number of tickets for just £10 for every performance. I think the most I've ever paid for a top price seat is about £40 - which is the equivalent of a decent meal for two at a cheapish restaurant over here and way less than a lot of the theatres in the West End charge for the best seats. But even the theatres which sell expensive seats in the stalls still offer a lot cheaper options. Theatre in the UK isn;t elistist and at most venues you can get a ticket for £10-£15 (and most hold back a small portion of tickets to be sold on the day - day tickets - many of which are front row seats)!

Now opera? That's a whole different ball game. I looked at some ticket prices for the Royal Opera House the other day and nearly had a coronary!
Christy: La ci darem la manoalmaviva90 on July 27th, 2012 05:36 am (UTC)
Sorry for randomly popping in but I just have to say that what you've said is simply spot on. Goodness knows how many times I and many others have said to ourselves, 'Oh damn, I wish I could see so-and-so in this play or other' but couldn't find the opportunity. Instead throwing a tantrum over how unfair that there isn't a DVD out there, we continue on our way, hoping that someday we might get the chance to see the actor or the play another time.

Interesting that you mention the Royal Opera House. I'm a huge fan of opera and I agree that the prices are pretty hefty but that's mostly because production costs are massive (I've heard that it costs thousands of pounds just to stage one performance) and the the ROH only get a third of its income subsidised from the government. It'll never alas shrug off its elitist image but they've done quite a bit to make opera more acccessible to the masses. I remember there were really cheap seats offered in the late 80s when they did a sort of Proms thing for a production of Le nozze di Figaro while in the past couple of years they've been doing live broadcasts in cinemas, similar to the NT with Frankenstein.

Edited at 2012-07-27 05:51 am (UTC)
Ruric: Ruric - moonwolfruric on July 27th, 2012 03:34 pm (UTC)
Hi and thanks!

There are I believe more affordable tickets to the RoH - it's just that I can't justify ever shelling out for the "best" seats or boxes in the house when they go for between £700-£1000! *flails* (Lottery win required). That's the kind of thing which makes it feel a bit more elistist to me. *G*

But you are right, if you hunt down the back of the top two balconies and restricted view seats you can get down to £45-£60 and I do believe if you are willing to go right to the top balcony and snag a standing spot (again with restricted views) you can get tIx for £5-£10.
hikarikame on July 27th, 2012 04:23 pm (UTC)
Okay, you guys have convinced me. Thanks everyone, for taking the time to hash this all out. Special personal thanks to starry ice and ruric for knocking it out of the ballpark - you two really convinced me.

So now I can be put to rest; hopefully this thread can help everyone else too. I did tell people on Tumblr to come check it out, I hope they actually did. It's quite enlightening.
Faith: The Birdsstarry_ice on July 27th, 2012 06:41 am (UTC)
As much as I value being able to watch my favourite movies over and over again, I think the notion of not being able to see something a hundred times makes that one time much more special.

But more importantly, I just don't think theatre translates well into film. The production values are just very different. For example, whenever they change camera views or start using zoom lenses in filming theatre, you simultaneously lose the creativity of the stage setup, and lose the realism of not having film quality set design. TV broadcasting theatre is that much worse, because most of the time you lose screen size and audio quality on top of this.

So the creators of a theatrical production have to choose whether they want to show their work to less people as it was meant to be seen, or accept an inferior translation onto film to reach a wider audience. It's not a simple choice...
hikarikame on July 27th, 2012 04:18 pm (UTC)
Oh!!! Ok, I forgot about the staging and the set. You're right, you do lose that with filming, because cameras have to move around to catch everything. And blocking and the background action and stuff...

Okay, I get it now. Thank you!
coldlikedeathcoldlikedeath on August 31st, 2012 11:19 pm (UTC)
We're fans of what they did, what they do. It's the NT's right to have this position. Stop over reacting, please and kindly respect what they have decided. I also agree with a few comments re can't-happen-past-a-certain-point-in-time, that sort of thing. nd if the actors don't want it, then we cannot make them reverse their decision.

If you have or take bootlegs, then be prepared to take the consequences. I do not support them.
Kristine MaitlandKristine Maitland on November 1st, 2012 09:05 pm (UTC)
Nonsense
The reasoning is utter rot.

Ephemeral indeed. In other words it can only be accessable to those who can afford cost. Hate to say it, but some of us cannot afford a flight to England or be in one of the select cities to attend a live screening.

And why do we need a DVD anyway? All we want to be able to do is see the play. I was able to see Tennant/Tate in Shakespeare's Much Ado about Nothing online for $15 CDN via Digital Theatre (*theatre*, folks).

Are you telling me that a filmmaker would be unable theatre experience and not have it translate to film? By doing live streaming, they were doing that already anyway.

I repeat.

Nonsense.
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